<Comment deleted by user>
@dboing said in #20:
> What makes this a vampire?
We will see a detailed analysis in the next post, but in a nutshell, it is a vampire because it is impossible to reach the following position (its mirror image) in a game of chess (try if you want!):
lichess.org/editor/r1bqkb1r/pppp2pp/8/3Pp3/8/8/1PPPPPPP/R1BQKBR1_w_Qkq_e6
The sequence to get to the presented position is not important. But it is crucial that castling rights be preserved and that the last move was the double pawn-push.
> What makes this a vampire?
We will see a detailed analysis in the next post, but in a nutshell, it is a vampire because it is impossible to reach the following position (its mirror image) in a game of chess (try if you want!):
lichess.org/editor/r1bqkb1r/pppp2pp/8/3Pp3/8/8/1PPPPPPP/R1BQKBR1_w_Qkq_e6
The sequence to get to the presented position is not important. But it is crucial that castling rights be preserved and that the last move was the double pawn-push.
<Comment deleted by user>
@dboing
> About EGTB... Am I writing in vain.. anyway going to stare at that low material position. .for what becomes illegal with what operation..
What I meant about this position:
lichess.org/analysis/b3k3/1K6/8/8/8/8/6N1/8_w
is that it is illegal, because there is no candidate last move.
It is not a vampire (vampires are legal).
> About EGTB... Am I writing in vain.. anyway going to stare at that low material position. .for what becomes illegal with what operation..
What I meant about this position:
lichess.org/analysis/b3k3/1K6/8/8/8/8/6N1/8_w
is that it is illegal, because there is no candidate last move.
It is not a vampire (vampires are legal).
@ambrona said in #22:
> We will see a detailed analysis in the next post, but in a nutshell, it is a vampire because it is impossible to reach the following position (its mirror image) in a game of chess (try if you want!):
>
> lichess.org/editor/r1bqkb1r/pppp2pp/8/3Pp3/8/8/1PPPPPPP/R1BQKBR1_w_Qkq_e6
>
> The sequence to get to the presented position is not important. But it is crucial that castling rights be preserved and that the last move was the double pawn-push.
Ok. getting there. or not . in the study last position versus the one from above. the colorblind material placement in being boardflipped. then the materical color switched, but not the .. WIP.
I think I have my symmetry operation domains wrong from the start of reading your blog. It seem that it is not a board operation. I am trying to see. if there is not an equivalent simpler operation.. like just turn passing.
double pawn push linked to en passant quirk. Is it semantics? the definition of what we consider legal or not, being the exact full FEN of both cases. The one where pieces colors are exchanged as well as the turn. the color of the turn exchanged. the center of symetry in the 2D+ dimensions, a vertical line X .. 0 (for no turn). Wasting your time but not mine. You don't have to keep answering. I will work in this.. my problem.. you gave me enough clues. thanks.
My way of dismissing the non-diagram part is actually the crux of this exercise. What we don't see in 2D but have to keep in mind. combinatorics without vision. so the en passant vector is part of the domain, and the castling. the study last position that was "flipped" in a way I still have to wrap my head around in formal way (my way, wanting geometry ambient understanding, even for categorical flags) compared to the editor position.
I see that whlie it was black to move in the non-flipped, in the flipped it is white to move. now I have to fudge my understanding of the flip operation... in the augmented space of 2D board, 32 material units placements, color to move, castlling, en passant flags, extra dimensions..
> We will see a detailed analysis in the next post, but in a nutshell, it is a vampire because it is impossible to reach the following position (its mirror image) in a game of chess (try if you want!):
>
> lichess.org/editor/r1bqkb1r/pppp2pp/8/3Pp3/8/8/1PPPPPPP/R1BQKBR1_w_Qkq_e6
>
> The sequence to get to the presented position is not important. But it is crucial that castling rights be preserved and that the last move was the double pawn-push.
Ok. getting there. or not . in the study last position versus the one from above. the colorblind material placement in being boardflipped. then the materical color switched, but not the .. WIP.
I think I have my symmetry operation domains wrong from the start of reading your blog. It seem that it is not a board operation. I am trying to see. if there is not an equivalent simpler operation.. like just turn passing.
double pawn push linked to en passant quirk. Is it semantics? the definition of what we consider legal or not, being the exact full FEN of both cases. The one where pieces colors are exchanged as well as the turn. the color of the turn exchanged. the center of symetry in the 2D+ dimensions, a vertical line X .. 0 (for no turn). Wasting your time but not mine. You don't have to keep answering. I will work in this.. my problem.. you gave me enough clues. thanks.
My way of dismissing the non-diagram part is actually the crux of this exercise. What we don't see in 2D but have to keep in mind. combinatorics without vision. so the en passant vector is part of the domain, and the castling. the study last position that was "flipped" in a way I still have to wrap my head around in formal way (my way, wanting geometry ambient understanding, even for categorical flags) compared to the editor position.
I see that whlie it was black to move in the non-flipped, in the flipped it is white to move. now I have to fudge my understanding of the flip operation... in the augmented space of 2D board, 32 material units placements, color to move, castlling, en passant flags, extra dimensions..
@ambrona said in #24:
> It is not a vampire (vampires are legal).
Well.. my bad then. but we are talking about symetry operations and whether they can constitute a legal position (the result of such operation) or not? I might have inverted some definition flags.. (would not be first time, i live in the connections, and might switch, unless I bug like i am doing now.. creating a new high attention linkage.. hopefully).. vampires then would be such that can be operated and still be legal. and others I have been talking about. let me contrast then the 2 positions. (have not done it yet).
> It is not a vampire (vampires are legal).
Well.. my bad then. but we are talking about symetry operations and whether they can constitute a legal position (the result of such operation) or not? I might have inverted some definition flags.. (would not be first time, i live in the connections, and might switch, unless I bug like i am doing now.. creating a new high attention linkage.. hopefully).. vampires then would be such that can be operated and still be legal. and others I have been talking about. let me contrast then the 2 positions. (have not done it yet).
@dboing
Your question about EGTB (at least my answer) was not about vampires. It was about whether the endgame databases contain illegal positions. The answer is yes, as I showed.
Coming back to vampires. They are *legal* positions that become illegal when you mirror them.
The mirror operation does three things:
- Reflect the board horizontally with respect to the center.
- Invert the color of all pieces.
- Invert the turn (and castling/en-passant rights).
Your question about EGTB (at least my answer) was not about vampires. It was about whether the endgame databases contain illegal positions. The answer is yes, as I showed.
Coming back to vampires. They are *legal* positions that become illegal when you mirror them.
The mirror operation does three things:
- Reflect the board horizontally with respect to the center.
- Invert the color of all pieces.
- Invert the turn (and castling/en-passant rights).
@ambrona said in #27:
>
what you understand my ramble? kudos.. and I like your clarity of expression.. jalous!
You would be an excellent or are an excellent math teacher, able to bear with people individual thought meanders, the usually unspoken part of mathematics discovery.
>
what you understand my ramble? kudos.. and I like your clarity of expression.. jalous!
You would be an excellent or are an excellent math teacher, able to bear with people individual thought meanders, the usually unspoken part of mathematics discovery.
Thanks!
I would actually describe your writing style as poetic. You show your thinking process with or without an order.
I am not always sure to understand everything that you want to say. Please, let me know if I missed anything.
I would actually describe your writing style as poetic. You show your thinking process with or without an order.
I am not always sure to understand everything that you want to say. Please, let me know if I missed anything.
@ambrona said in #29:
> Thanks!
>
> I would actually describe your writing style as poetic. You show your thinking process with or without an order.
>
> I am not always sure to understand everything that you want to say. Please, let me know if I missed anything.
poetic is nice way to put it. You could figure out I was lost in the naming more than the logic. and then got lost in my own hypotheses to fix that fog something like that. The journaling is an adopted style for complex things, one has to read and write with little surface ego sensitivity, or being right or wrong, but putting seeking some understandable truth forward. not shying about how ugly it might get before starting to converge. It means intuition has right of publication. I use to not be as exhibitionist about my thinking, it got me not far. My only guilt is breaking or forcing people would actually try to read things that become moot later. I also do typos from hell.
Some things I said are long haul and not just about your blog. But for the part of your blog, I think last post is a robust basis for me. To orient myself by myself. This is what I mean by "teacher" talent, ability to induce where the bug might be in the fallacies on the other end of presentation, the audience. Not flattery, well a compliment. And appreciation that I might have actually shared in the end, without solving it myself the nature of my fog (less lonely, intellectually). Also, not just getting it, but finding a very to the point answer. With bullet points, cherry on top! It does not look like it, but as reader, I prefer not to read the kind of stuff I am writing. But concision from my own bubble is flirting with being weird or off base at audience unknow composition end. I fluctuate. thanks. I will remember this conversation (it usually has the highest attention quality long term memory persistence, even more when about logic, and mis-logic, or other rational seeking argumentation).
ps: about horsey. its origin had me using it as the highest compliment for my set of values, which is about being able to look at same things with different and new interesting or informative (potential) perspective. What I do for good and bad myself (error prone related, I think). So, while others might use the English connotation of it, I use it for "original" "wise" or "perspicacous" somethings like that. not to forget "refreshing".. all good stuff.
> Thanks!
>
> I would actually describe your writing style as poetic. You show your thinking process with or without an order.
>
> I am not always sure to understand everything that you want to say. Please, let me know if I missed anything.
poetic is nice way to put it. You could figure out I was lost in the naming more than the logic. and then got lost in my own hypotheses to fix that fog something like that. The journaling is an adopted style for complex things, one has to read and write with little surface ego sensitivity, or being right or wrong, but putting seeking some understandable truth forward. not shying about how ugly it might get before starting to converge. It means intuition has right of publication. I use to not be as exhibitionist about my thinking, it got me not far. My only guilt is breaking or forcing people would actually try to read things that become moot later. I also do typos from hell.
Some things I said are long haul and not just about your blog. But for the part of your blog, I think last post is a robust basis for me. To orient myself by myself. This is what I mean by "teacher" talent, ability to induce where the bug might be in the fallacies on the other end of presentation, the audience. Not flattery, well a compliment. And appreciation that I might have actually shared in the end, without solving it myself the nature of my fog (less lonely, intellectually). Also, not just getting it, but finding a very to the point answer. With bullet points, cherry on top! It does not look like it, but as reader, I prefer not to read the kind of stuff I am writing. But concision from my own bubble is flirting with being weird or off base at audience unknow composition end. I fluctuate. thanks. I will remember this conversation (it usually has the highest attention quality long term memory persistence, even more when about logic, and mis-logic, or other rational seeking argumentation).
ps: about horsey. its origin had me using it as the highest compliment for my set of values, which is about being able to look at same things with different and new interesting or informative (potential) perspective. What I do for good and bad myself (error prone related, I think). So, while others might use the English connotation of it, I use it for "original" "wise" or "perspicacous" somethings like that. not to forget "refreshing".. all good stuff.